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Warnstorfia exannulata

There is an open discussion at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion#February 22 on Warnstorfia exannulata which may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. See there for the gory details; contributions welcome.

Leaving entirely to one side the issue of the desirability or otherwise of soft redirects to Wikispecies, it seems to me that a good solution to this particular XfD would be to write up Warnstorfia, which already exists in several non-English WPs. There is, however, a problem: WP:RS sources seem to suggest that Warnstorfia is currently placed in two different families; which means that research and writing may not be easy, and that the {{taxobox}} would be problematic. However, if anyone would like to have a go at it... Narky Blert (talk) 19:46, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

@Narky Blert:  Done I have created Warnstorfia and the associated taxonomy templates. Feel free to de-stub or adjust the taxonomy, I'm not a moss-guy. I'm also tempted to stub out Warnstorfia exannulata, but not tonight. --awkwafaba (📥) 04:28, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

@Awkwafaba: Thank you! Are you sure it's in family Amblystegiaceae though? Some sources say it's in de:Calliergonaceae. Narky Blert (talk) 09:33, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

@Narky Blert: I’m not sure, but I had to pick something. --awkwafaba (📥) 12:25, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

It doesn't help with the family assignment but the British Bryophyte Society has species pages for this moss and other British bryophytes. They were previously published as a field guide and might help with the article. list of species pages, e.g. Warnstorfia exannulata. —  Jts1882 | talk  13:46, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

I would go for family Calliergonaceae. This family was split off from Amblystegiaceae by Vanderpooten et al (2002). The Warnstorfia were included in family Calliergonaceae in Goffinet's Bryophyte Biology (2008) and is still placed there on the website based on that book, Classification of extant moss genera. The downloadable genus list was last updated on 7 January 2020. —  Jts1882 | talk  17:06, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

@Jts1882: Feel free to update {{Taxonomy/Warnstorfia}}. --awkwafaba (📥) 18:13, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Bryophyte taxonomy

As far as I'm aware, there has never been any effort to make mosses consistently following any particular system of classification (and if there has been, there doesn't seem to be any effort to keep it up to date). I'd like to implement automatic taxoboxes for mosses with a consistent classification scheme at some point. I haven't done so yet because I haven't taken the time to research what classifications schemes are out ther, and which is the best accepted. I have a slight COI with regards to Goffinet; I had him as a professor and am better acquainted with him personally than any other taxonomist whose work I've cited on Wikipedia. I don't want to go with Goffinet's classification myself without input from other editors that Goffinet is a good source to follow (or suggest a better source?). Plantdrew (talk) 17:58, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Is there a good alternative? I've being reading up on "bryophyte" taxonomy and phylogeny and I don't see a clear alternative. The web pages by Goffinet (with Jan 2020 genera checklist) and Crandall-Stotler (not sure if stil updated) seem well supported by the literature (albeit you can't escape their influence there). The Cole bryophyte phylogeny poster is also a convenient consensus phylogeny (again with Goffinet).

I was considering setting up the higher level structure in the taxonomy templates. If people agree with following the Goffinet classification I will start doing so. —  Jts1882 | talk  18:20, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

I did make a start on this using the Goffinet web source, which is based on the 2008 book but has some revisions. I have since managed to get a copy of the book so I can compare the two.

1. The book uses five unnamed superclasses (I-V). Stech & Frey (2008) in their taxonomy used three subdivisions with a broader Bryophytina for three of the Goffinet superclasses. Goffinet adopted the subdivisions but used five corresponding to his former superclasses.
2. The book has two monotypic orders in class Sphagnopsida while the web version has a single order for three families (including one described since the book).
3. The book uses three monotypic classes (Polytrichopsida, Tetraphidopsida, Oedipodiopsida) alongside Bryopsida in superclass V (=subdivision Bryophytina). The web version uses an expanded Polytrichopsida with three orders. This one is more problematic as the phylogeny in Liu et al 2019 depends on the analysis. A Polytrichopsida sensu lato is their favoured result but is paraphyletic in other analyses.
4. Many other changes within Bryopsida.

Overall, the web version is more up to date and incorporates changes based on recent phylogenetic studies, but I can't find published descriptions for some of the changes in the taxonomy. Is the web site a suitable source for the taxonomy templates? I think it is the best source, but am not sure it meets all the Wikipedia requirements. —  Jts1882 | talk  16:21, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and started updating the moss taxonomy and taxoboxes. I have largely followed Goffinet. All articles outside Bryidae now have automated taxoboxes, with a couple of exceptions listed below and probably a few I missed.

Bryophyta in automated taxoboxes update summary

Takakiopsida – one genus and two species (all using automated taxoboxes)  Done Sphagnopsida – one extant order with three families. All extant families, genera and species using automated taxoboxes. Done Sphagnum novo-caledoniae hasn't been moved to Flatbergium. The extinct species Protosphagnum nervatum (order Protosphagnales) uses a manual taxobox. Now  Done Andreaeopsida – single family with two genera. Family Andreaeaceae and all Andreaea species using automated taxoboxes.  Done Genus Acroschisma has no article. Andreaeobryopsida – single genus and species (using speciesbox) Done Polytrichopsida sensu lato – left as three classes for now. Oedipodiopsida – single genus and species (using speciesbox)  Done Tetraphidopsida – single family with two genera, Tetraphis and Tetrodontium (all using automated taxoboxes) Done One missing species article in Tetraphis) Polytrichopsida – single family with many genera. The genera and species with articles all use automated taxoboxes) Done Bryopsida – seven subfamilies. Articles for all orders and families outside Bryidae now exist. Buxbaumiidae – single genus with twelve species (only one with article) (all articles using automated taxoboxes) Done Diphysciidae – single genus with no species articles (15 species) (uses automated taxobox) Done Gigaspermidae – single family with five genera (four monotypic) (all articles using automated taxoboxes) Done Timmiidae – single genus with no species articles (4 species) (uses automated taxobox)  Done Funariidae – three families in monotypics orders: Encalyptaceae, Funariaceae and Disceliaceae (all articles using automated taxoboxes) Done Dicranidae – articles created for missing orders and families or their monotypic taxa (all using automated taxoboxes) "Protohaplolepidae" grade of four families: Timmiellaceae, Catoscopiaceae, Distichiaceae and Flexitrichaceae (all articles using automated taxoboxes) Done Orders Pseudoditrichales, Scouleriales, Bryoxiphiales, Archidiales (all articles using automated taxoboxes) Done Grimmiales (all but one articles using automated taxoboxes) Done Racomitrium lanuginosum had a section in the manual taxobox, which may or not be up to date taxonomy. Anyway I converted it using the section and speciesbox  Done Order Dicranales articles created for missing families or their monotypic taxa (all using automated taxoboxes) Families Fissidentaceae, Hypodontiaceae, Eustichiaceae, Ditrichaceae, Bruchiaceae, Rhachitheciaceae, Erpodiaceae, Schistostegaceae, Viridivelleraceae, Rhabdoweisiaceae (all using automated taxoboxes)  Done Many of the genus articles are absent or missing species information Families Dicranaceae (all using automated taxoboxes)  Done The articles need some care, e.g. Dicranum Families Micromitriaceae, Leucobryaceae, Octoblepharaceae, Calymperaceae (all using automated taxoboxes)  Done Very few genus and species articles Order Pottiales (all articles that exist using automated taxoboxes)  Done Family articles created following Goffinet and list of other families with comments added.  Done Bryidae – this subfamily contains the vast majority of mosses. All the taxoboxes I could find have been converted to automated taxoboxes.  Done

I can't think of any other well-known group of organisms that is as sparsely covered as the mosses. Many orders and families were completely missing and I have created stubs for many of these. A lot of other articles are older bot generated ones with either no genus or species listings or listings that are obsolete. I've being using WFO for genus and species listings but these are largely out of date. I'm not sure of a good modern checklist or resource for mosses below genus level (Goffinet's website has a genus listing update in Jan 2020).

One other thing that might be of help is addition of some moss terms to the plant glossary. I struggle with peristomes, nematodontous and arthrodontous, diplolepideous-opposite and diplolepideous-alternate, haplolepideous, acrocarpous and pleurocarpous. Anyone able to help out here? —  Jts1882 | talk  14:26, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

@Jts1882: did you get these terms sorted out? Some are in the glossary to E.V. Watson's British Mosses and Liverworts, which I have, but most aren't. Bryologists do seem to use highly specialized and rather obscure terminology! EncycloPetey is the only editor I know of that seems to have serious knowledge of mosses, but he hasn't been around as much lately. Peter coxhead (talk) 07:23, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Getting there, although its like a foreign language. I've got hold of Goffinet's Bryophyte Biology (2008) and some useful reviews (notably Huttunen et al, 2018). A good extensive glossary would still be helpful. Most of Watson's glossary is available through Amazon preview, but it doesn't cover the peristome types. —  Jts1882 | talk  13:54, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Bill and Nancy Malcolm have published a couple of illustrated glossaries of bryophyte terms (in book form). Their coverage is a bit moss-heavy and hepatic-light, but I can't recommend a good liverwort glossary. --EncycloPetey (talk) 14:20, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

I've finished the conversion of mosses to automated taxoboxes, at least those I could find using search (Petscan is down). There were only a few hundred in the end, which shows how poor the coverage of mosses is on Wikipedia. There are dozens of families and hundreds of genera without articles. I plan to create stub articles for the families with genus lists.

One thing I noted is that many of the species articles are not well connected to the higher taxa. Most were created based IUCN assessments (mainly by bots) or from regional flora lists, and many of these lack articles on the genus or family so are orphaned if you approach mosses from the higher taxa. —  Jts1882 | talk  15:45, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

FWIW, Goffinet has been updating his classification as of the last I worked with the moss classification on Wikispecies. He still responds to email queries. But my area of expertise is in the Marchantiophyta and Anthocerotophyta. A major world checklist and classification was published by Söderström et al., 2016, and it has been implemented in both Tropicos and ITIS. We've also implemented it down to genus listings on Wikispecies, but there have been some updates published since the initial 2016 paper. E.g. Long, David G., Laura L. Forrest, Juan Carlos Villarreal, Barbara J. Crandall-Stotler. 2016. "Taxonomic changes in Marchantiaceae, Corsiniaceae and Cleveaceae (Marchantiidae, Marchantiophyta)". Phytotaxa 252 (1): 077–080. Which merged Preissia and Buegia into Marchantia, synonymized Stephensoniella into Exormotheca, among other changes. So there will be some places where the initial 2016 paper differs from Tropicos, ITIS, and Wikispecies because of the updates.

And to answer your earlier questions, no, the Crandall-Stotler online classification is not being maintained nor updated. Ray Stotler has passed away, and Barbara Crandall-Stotler (a morphologist) has not been maintaining it. There are no currently active hepaticologists running teams at SIU anymore; all of them have left, retired, or moved to emeritus status. --EncycloPetey (talk) 14:16, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Royal Horticultural Society Award of Garden Merit

Tons of plant articles note that particular cultivars have been granted the Royal Horticultural Society's Award of Garden Merit (e.g. Symphyotrichum novae-angliae). It hardly seems important or interesting to me that some cultivar of a plant is one of some 7500 that a particular regional organisation thinks are good garden plants. From what I've seen this information is only ever cited to the primary source. But I'm not well-versed in the world of cultivated plants, am I missing something? Someone has clearly spent a lot of time adding this information. It's maybe better than not mentioning cultivation at all, but any reason not to remove it from articles that already have an overview of what kinds of cultivars exist and how they are used? I feel like it's making this "award" sound much more important than it actually is. Somatochlora (talk) 16:10, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

I think it should stay. It is by far the most important award a plant can get as a horticultural product. When you buy a plant here in continental Europe, if its AGM that acronym's usually printed on the label; as in Hylotelephium x. 'Herbstfreude' AGM. The same in product lists at nurseries or in seedlists. Now that I think about, I can list which of the species/cultivars I grow have AGM from memory, which is odd. In the SE USA the "proven winners" thing might be come closest, but there is something up with the PBRs with that and the RHS holds extensive trials -the fact a cultivar got a AGM means that somewhere out there is a fat .pdf detailing why, and that the cultivar in question is superior. A breeder might/must pay to bring his new plant to the government facilities in the Netherlands so it can be trialled and certified as good for a specific area, but that really isn't similar. When cultivars over here get AGM status it's news in the trade mags, like some grass recently. The auction-houses organise a plant of the year here (house plant, 'student' plant, innovative product, yaddayadda) and in Germany there is something similar, as far as I'm concerned such an award is also relevant and notable. Sales actually increase. Perhaps you are uninterested in cultivation, but I assure you that others are! Cheers, Leo Breman (talk) 01:25, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Okay thanks. I'm not entirely convinced. There are plenty of meaningless awards out there in various fields, and businesses (growers and nurseries) are going to hype up the award to sell their products. It's like how every car ad lists various awards and rankings that the car has won - these shouldn't be mentioned on the Wikipedia page for the car unless they are actually important, and as far as I can see they mostly aren't mentioned. The Award of Garden Merit article right now provides zero indication that anyone cares or even notices when a plant is given this award, hence my question above. If it e.g. increases sales, can we get a source saying that? At a (very brief) look all the secondary sources I found were either trying to sell me something or only mentioned the award in passing.Somatochlora (talk) 15:08, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

The RHS is rather more than just "a particular regional organisation" - it is the UK's leading gardening charity (according to the RHS, it is the world's leading gardening charity), with a membership of over 500,000 and annual revenue of £100M. Why not read the society's 2019 Annual Report to get an idea of its scale of operations? It isn't a commercial trade organisation, and when an AGM is awarded, it is only done so after prolonged assessment based on garden worthiness, and as such is an important indication of a cultivar's quality, and is often referred to in reliable sources e.g. The Telegraph, BBC, The Guardian. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 14:10, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

The importance of the Royal Horticultural Society's Award of Garden Merit cannot be overstated. Most plants get two important events in the lifetime of the species; their initial description by a botanist, and a trial at the Royal Horticultural Society. In fact, not getting or having the Award of Garden Merit revoked is as important an event as anything that ever happened to most species. I have systematically gone through and made sure that no plant that has won the AGM is assessed "Low" on the PLANTS banner on the talk page. They are all "Mid" or higher. Abductive (reasoning) 04:49, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Whilst I agree that the award of the RHS AGM is notable, I'm not convinced that this alone makes a plant article of "Mid" importance to this project, which is primarily concerned with botany. Such articles are likely to be of such importance to WikiProject Horticulture and Gardening. Peter coxhead (talk) 08:19, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Well, the page views show that any plant species that has any use to humans, or is a weed, gets orders of magnitude more views than species that have only, to be kind, their original botanical description. There are 320,000 species of plants. Most do not have an article. There are 69,422 Lows, 7425 Mids, 683 Highs and 80 Tops. This makes WP:Plants much more heavily skewed towards the Lows than most Wikiprojects, and would be made even more so if all the remaining species were added. Also, I have not automatically made cultivars, subspecies or hybrids that won the AGM "Mid", just the species. Abductive (reasoning) 19:02, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Bruguiera (genus) page: Seems unusual to have species synonyms listed on the genera page

Repeating a post on the talk page of Bruguiera: As the topic line above says, it seems unusual. I am ambivalent about this, on the one hand it means that it makes it easier for a user to find the taxa they ultimately are wanting info on, on the other hand, "search" does this as well. What do people think? Brunswicknic (talk) 10:45, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

I see no objection to including the information, but the simple listing makes it difficult to determine the number of species from that section. And as some synonyms are redirected there appear to be more species articles. It would be better to list the six species and give the synonyms indented below each or as a separate list. —  Jts1882 | talk  11:32, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

I reorganised the list and self reverted to illustrate a different arrangement, see here. The repetitive "synonym of ..." text could be replaced by synonyms on a single line. Whatever the decision I think the current list should go, reorganised with synonyms or replaced by a simple species list. —  Jts1882 | talk  14:39, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Jts1882, lovely work, yes that alternative is great, shows the accepted species clearly, but allows users who have come across superseded names (which occurs in much literature, particularly in the Majority World) to see where they need to go to find info. It would be hard for a speciose taxa, Eucalyptus, Acacia for instance, but in this case it is not too much. Amongst the help for users, it recognises the work of the previous editors. Thanks. Brunswicknic (talk) 07:32, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Arthur Whistler

Can anyone with some familiarity with Pacific botany add a bit to this article? I'm pretty sure he meets the WP:GNG, if not the tightly-delineated WP:PROF, but the article right now is mostly sourced to his obituaries and CV, making that difficult to demonstrate. Choess (talk) 17:37, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Ziziphus cambodianus

I have edited Ziziphus cambodianus, but I haven't. That name is accepted, but it redirects to Ziziphus cambodiana. That page had strong issues. I have edited it. Could someone with power change the heading, and redirection away from cambodianus, please. Wikidata still lists it as cambodiana and its links lead nowhere, presumably because of the wrong name, therefore the "q" number ("Taxonbar|from=Q17251852") gives nothing, is there some way this could be changed? Thanks for your work. Brunswicknic (talk) 09:05, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

I suspect that cambodiana is correct in spite of databases like IPNI and POWO using cambodianus. Most Latin tree names ending in -us are feminine, despite the high school teaching the 1st declension nouns ending in -us are masculine, but masculine forms of adjectives were often incorrectly used as epithets due to an incomplete command of Latin. (An exception is Euonymus, which is a borrowing from Greek, and is masculine.) Ziziphus may be Neo-Latin, being a borrowing from Persian, which makes its gender uncertain, but if you look at lists of species lots of other species have feminine epithets, so it looks as if Ziziphus is considered a feminine noun. I've dropped a query to IPNI, but they're understaffed for the duration. Lavateraguy (talk) 13:02, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

FWIW, Google search results are 9:1 in favour of cambodiana. Lavateraguy (talk) 13:27, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm sorry Lavateraguy, while I respect your work to improve Wikipedia and your knowledge of Latin, you are not correct in your assertions. IPNI and POWO are publications of the Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew. They are not merely a database, they are an authority on international botany. Rules from a dead language do not trump them. Google search: yes I believe that cambodiana was formerly the standard name, BUT it is not now the standardized, authorized term for Ziziphus cambodianus. That is why I reverted your edits on the appropriate pages, and repeat my call for the name to be used at the two Wikipedia pages, and at Wikidata. Brunswicknic (talk) 09:56, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

I waited for confirmation from Kew before making the changes. (IPNI has now been updated, for this, and 4 other names.) Their response mentions that of the 301 entries in IPNI for the genus only 5 used masculine epithets. (Short of actually counting I'd guess at 100-150 using feminine epithets, and the rest being nouns in apposition, and cases where the feminine and masculine forms are the same.)

"rules from a dead language" may not trump them, but the ICN does, and that says that orthographic errors, including errors in grammatical agreement, are to be corrected. Lavateraguy (talk) 10:23, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

As Lavateraguy indicated, the rules of the ICN are not superseded by the existence of an entry in IPNI. It's not an uncommon occurrence to do what he did: find an error, email IPNI, and get the entry updated; I do it more or less frequently with ferns. Your condescension and deference to its infallibility is misplaced, and unimpressive to those of us who have taken a hand in making the sausage, as it were. Choess (talk) 16:40, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, that was unnecessarily hostile. It's true that we shouldn't conflict with IPNI solely because of individual editors' interpretations of the code. However, it's likely enough that editors here will uncover cases like this where IPNI is wrong, and the use of talk pages to solicit opinions on those interpretations and further correspondence with IPNI/POWO is to be encouraged. Choess (talk) 18:15, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm confused. Which should it be? More importantly, we need to use one consistently, even if only temporarily until a consensus is reached. At the moment the page title and taxobox title use cambodiana, while the article text, taxobox species and taxobox binomial use cambodianus. —  Jts1882 | talk  14:32, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

When Jean Baptiste Louis Pierre described the species in 1894 in Flore forestière de la Cochinchine he used the spelling Ziziphus cambodiana. However the rules of nomenclature say that when the epithet in a botanical name is an adjective it should agree with the gender of the generic name; if the original author got it wrong it should be corrected. So the question that needs to be answered is what is the gender of Ziziphus? There are three possible sources of an answer - classical usage, botanical consensus, or a declaration by the author who coined the name. Ziziphus (or Zizyphus) has been in use in the botanical literature since the 16th century (Valerii Cordi, 1561, for Ziziphys, Rembert Dodoens, 1583, for Zizyphus) so we can exclude the last. Dodoens gives Ziziphos or Zizyphos as the Greek forms, Ziziphus or Zizyphys as the Latin forms, and Zezulus as a variant/alternative name due to the 13th century writer Petrus Crescentius. An online Latin dictionary gives ziziphus and zizyphus as feminine variants, and ziziphum and zizyphum as neuter ones. These observations suggest that the words are classical, but are not irrefutable evidence. Kew agrees that it's feminine, and have corrected IPNI, but seem to be relying on botanical consensus - 5 names out 301 in their records using masculine epithets. The source of the conflict is that later botanists had a lesser command of Latin, particularly in the 20th century, and believing -us to be universally a masculine ending miscorrected names to use masculine epithets (or incorrectly used masculine epithets in descriptions of new species). Valerii Cordi treated it as feminine; Philip Miller, the first author to use it after the publication of Species Plantarum, also treated it as feminine, as have most subsequent writers. Bottom line - it's cambodiana. (IPNI and POWO can have errors - I've reported quite a few to IPNI over the years.) Lavateraguy (talk) 16:56, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Exactly. IPNI, etc. assign the authorship of the genus to Miller. If you look at Miller's original here, when he attaches a Latin adjective which has a distinct feminine to the genus name, he uses the feminine, e.g. Ziziphus argentea. There seems no reason not to follow the gender used by Miller, which is common for trees. Thus Quercus alba, Fagus sylvatica, Taxus baccata, Pinus nigra, etc. The masculines are errors to be corrected. Peter coxhead (talk) 18:07, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

In case there's any confusion on this point, IPNI and POWO are descriptive, not prescriptive - something isn't true just because it's stated by them. Lavateraguy (talk) 19:01, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

I don't understand. IPNI and POWO represent a consensus derived from scientists, botanist, taxonomists, professionals, academics, &c. Editors of wikipedia may individually be one of these, but they do not represent the collective consensus that the staff at the Botanic Gardens, Kew endeavour to follow. I'm sorry, you are saying that "I know best, ignore the accepted authorities". We can argue all we want, but as a worldwide source and authority on plant names, I believe IPNI/POWO/Botanic Gardens, Kew above wiki-contributors. Correct me if I am wrong, but we must reference our wikipedia entries to an authoritive source, I have, the name in current use is cambodianus. Can it be changed as per wiki-rules. Brunswicknic (talk) 02:07, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

IPNI and POWO and other botanical databases are not 100% accurate (for example the recent Brasil checklist used a nom. inval. later homonym for a species of Helicteres). In this case IPNI and POWO are internally inconsistent. A genus has a grammatical gender. Adjectival epithets for species in that genus must (ICN) agree in grammatical gender with the genus. IPNI now has all species of Ziziphus using the feminine form of adjectives (i.e. cambodiana). POWO has most species using the feminine form, with a few species (e.g. cambodianus) using the masculine (I expect this will change shortly). We have a prescriptive source (the ICN) which represents the consensus of botanists which says that this cannot be correct - this means some of the entries in POWO must be using the wrong form of the name, and therefore we cannot blindly accept the name in POWO. Looking at the names of Ziziphus species in general in IPNI/POWO/other botanical works finds a strong consensus for the feminine form. For context, we know that mistakenly using masculine agreement for 2nd declension feminine nouns with -us stems has historically been a problem, so we can infer that one of the sources used by IPNI/POWO committed this error. Lavateraguy (talk) 09:39, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

To put it in stark terms the choice is that either IPNI has 5 names in Ziziphus wrong, or it has 100 or so names in Ziziphus wrong, and similar numbers for POWO. Even if you don't realise it, you are arguing for the latter, in spite of your appeals to authority. Now, in theory it could be the case that the latter is true - we had the same issue with another -us stem genus name some years back where the balance of numbers was more even. I cited one Latin dictionary which gave it as feminine. It turns out that Perseus gives it as masculine. But the preponderance of botanical usage treats it as feminine - I wouldn't be surprised, if someone made a case for it being masculine, that botanists turned round and declared it feminine ("conserved with feminine gender" - cf Balanites). Lavateraguy (talk) 10:11, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

I have undone the revision on the Ziziphus cambodianus page, that changed it all to cambodiana. Why? There is no authoritative reference for this name. You have not provided a reference. You have here asserted individual opionions, appealed to guidelines, and yet you have no references for the current accepted name being cambodiana. I note that it was cambodiana in the past. It seems to be have been changed, presumably with discussion. The current accepted name from authoritive sources is cambodianus. If that is a problem, argue with authoritive sources, not me. Brunswicknic (talk) 02:20, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

This matter is still under discussion and you don't have consensus for the change you want to introduce. Whatever the final decision (I am neutral here) the article should use one name throughout, not a mixture of Ziziphus cambodiana and Ziziphus cambodianus in various places, something your edits introduced. While the discussion continues, the page should follow the title (the only way to be consistent). The IPNI is now using Ziziphus cambodianua so your original argument for following authority no longer applies. —  Jts1882 | talk  07:31, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

The 2007 "A Checklist of the Vascular Plants of Lao PDR" from RBGE and a couple of Laotian institutions uses Ziziphus cambodiana. You don't have an authoritive source for a deliberate change from cambodiana to cambodianus - that is your inference. You should at least listen to people offering an alternative inference. Lavateraguy (talk) 09:39, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Now that IPNI has corrected its entry, the matter is settled; the reliable sources for the feminine are clear. PoWO will follow later; it uses IPNI, but is updated less often. Peter coxhead (talk) 13:59, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Help formatting Infobox cultivar

Hi! I have two articles for hemp cultivars that could use an expert's help on many things, but especially including how to format {{Infobox cultivar}}. I'm not sure what the rules are for italics, single quotes, etc. The articles are Finola (hemp) and Tochigishiro. Just for extra complexity, the second one is a Japanese word so I italicized it in the body but I'm not even sure if this is proper. ☆ Bri (talk) 21:34, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Hiya. Had a looksee. Very nice, interesting stuff. I do see some problems. Finola is a (new) brand name, a trademark I think; the cultivar is actually called 'FIN-314'. Cultivar names should be in single parenthesis. Latin (and Japanese (with caveats -transliterations I put in quotations)) should be in italics, also in the infobox. Also the references need work. Otherwise I see little wrong and commend you or whomever on two good and useful articles... isn't a group of Italian hemp cultivars of prime importance for fibre in Europe?Leo Breman (talk) 22:17, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the help -- your recommended changes have been incorporated. I don't believe I've ever used six straight quotes in a row before.

As for Italy, I'm not really up to speed (yet). There is a List of hemp varieties for EU, if it's important it's probably listed there. It would be interesting to find out what's grown in France too, to round out Hemp in France, also my creation. ☆ Bri (talk) 22:42, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

You're welcome! ...but sorry. Should of been clearer. Per ICNCP cultivar names should always been in normal font, not italics, irrespective of the language, as in Cannabis sativa 'Tochigishiro'. Per MOS non-English words in prose should be in italics, as in "the Japanese word tochigishiro translates as ...". Cheers, Leo Breman (talk) 07:30, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts...

I'm working on cleaning up Coconut, and was wondering if you folks could provide some insight or thoughts about its origin and especially dispersal. I'm trying to figure out how much weight to give to various hypotheses about where it evolved, and how it spread to its present range. There a few different takes in the literature, i.e. that it is Asian, South American, or Pacific in origin. How it spread, whether via natural forces or via humans is also contested. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 00:42, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Well, I've always favoured the South America origin theory. Also thought much of the modern distribution is human-assisted. Remember reading something about the first coconuts in Australia and some discussion about if it were to be regarded as an invasive species in Florida. Also it was distributed to new areas and planted in large amounts during the copra era; for example, I think it was introduced to Wake Island fairly recently. And it is regarded as a Polynesian 'boat plant'. But it is obviously adapted for some sea dispersal. The Australian stuff had something about the survival rate of coconuts at sea (not invincible). Leo Breman (talk) 22:29, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

The most recent material I have access to (2011) indicates an "Old World" Tropics origin for the domesticated coconut, see https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?type=printable&id=10.1371/journal.pone.0021143. This is for the domesticated Cocos nucifera, where the original wild taxa came from is less clear, though quick scan shows fossils around the Indian sub-continent.Brunswicknic (talk) 12:17, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Very interesting. I liked that the conclusions on Indian Ocean introductions were also seen linguistically. I found a bit more on this, a commentary on the Gunn article and a 2019 work on South American coconuts, which supports the conclusions of dual import of the two domesticates. Seems pretty convincing. —  Jts1882 | talk  13:27, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

This 2016 thesis is highly redacted, but Appendix 1 on the origin of the Central American populations looks to be of interest. Lavateraguy (talk) 09:38, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Persicaria polymorpha

Which plant is Persicaria polymorpha? On Wikipedia, Persicaria polymorpha redirects to Koenigia alpina, although it isn't listed as a synonym. One of the synonyms that is listed however is Persicaria alpina. According to the RHS, Persicaria polymorpha is one of the synonyms of Persicaria alpina. So that seems to establish a connection, at least in a horticultural source, between Persicaria polymorpha and Koenigia alpina. Yet the plant commonly sold in the horticultural trade as Persicaria polymorpha tends to look like this, a rather robust and imposing herbaceous plant that grows 1.5 - 1.8 metres high. The RHS page has a similar looking plant. Whereas the images at Commons of Aconogonom alpinum (another Wikipedia-listed synonym of Koenigia alpina, and where our article links to for images) look to me rather less imposing - not nearly so statuesque or substantial, both in foliage and flowers. Is this just a species with very variable morphology, or is the horticultural trade supplying something different, and if so, what are they supplying? PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 03:18, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Fleeceflower (a dab page) has both names (and also has both Fallopia and Reynoutria japonica). It looks as if it could do with a bit of a tidy up, if one could establish usage and disentangle taxonomy. Lavateraguy (talk) 09:27, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

I had/have it in my collection as Persicaria wallichii. I was under the impression the accepted name should now be Koenigia polystachya. It's a really cool plant! (when kept in a huge pot and watered constantly)... Leo Breman (talk) 11:10, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Well, Koenigia polystachya is the name Plants of the World Online accepts for the species with the synonym Persicaria wallichii. It doesn't list Persicaria polymorpha either as an accepted name or a synonym. It does however list Polygonum polymorphum as a synonym of Koenigia alpina; the generic boundaries in the Polygonoideae are notoriously variable between sources.

However, I believe that the plant known in horticulture as "Persicaria polymorpha" is actually the cultivar previously known as Aconogonon 'Johanneswolke'. I have discussed this before; see User talk:Peter coxhead/Archive 19#Polygonum polymorphum. See p. 88 in this PDF. It's sometimes called Aconogonon × fennicum 'Johanneswolke'. See the image and names here. Peter coxhead (talk) 12:47, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

The nothospecies Aconogonon × fennicum is in IPNI, with the parents given as A. alpinum and A. weyrichii. Both are now put in Koenigia, so it is Koenigia × fennica in PoWO. So I suppose the plant in question should be called Koenigia 'Johanneswolke' or Koenigia × fennica 'Johanneswolke'. Peter coxhead (talk) 12:57, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

I will go with Koenigia × fennica 'Johanneswolke', I clearly have that one. Thanks, Peter. This will be the fourth time in five years I rewrite the label for that plant. I used to have a little Persicaria collection, but almost everything got moved to new genera, darnit. Leo Breman (talk) 21:20, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

I've now created an article at Koenigia × fennica which includes 'Johanneswolke' and put a hatnote at Koenigia alpina. I hope this will help readers to find the plant in cultivation. Peter coxhead (talk) 06:49, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

I've also now redirected Persicaria polymorpha to Koenigia × fennica § 'Johanneswolke'. The name "Persicaria polymorpha" is not in IPNI; it seems to be a horticultural usage and not a published synonym of Polygonum polymorphum. Peter coxhead (talk) 08:15, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Peter, I appreciate your digging up of all this information and creating the article, and apologies from me for going over this ground again - I had actually forgotten about our earlier conversation until after I made the post above, and then I didn't have the energy to search for it (I don't have much energy available for Wikipedia these days). I was prompted to ask about this again because a year ago I bought a plant labelled as Persicaria polymorpha from a nursery in Norfolk, only it so far hasn't grown into the plant I was expecting from previous growing experience, and so I looked again at our article on Koenigia alpina and at the associated pictures at Commons, and I thought 'I don't think that's the same plant that I've grown before' and it made me wonder what I had bought this time. I agree with Leo Breman that Koenigia × fennica 'Johanneswolke' is a great plant, especially if - as I do - you like plants that look like they've taken a few steroids... PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 09:22, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

@PaleCloudedWhite: actually I had forgotten too! Google found the archived thread when I searched for "Persicaria polymorpha" and it was only when I looked at it that I remembered. So I thought I had better forestall forgetting again by creating an article, which I found quite interesting.

It would be good to have a photo of the cultivar uploaded to Commons, if either you or Leo Breman could manage that. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:44, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Great article. One problem; how sure are we about the spelling? This cultivar is German I gather, and the most common spelling by far on German websites is 'Johanniswolke' (usually identified as Aconogonon speciosum); RHS Gardening also spells it thus, as does the German site we're referencing. You know, I'm quite sure of myself, I'll go ahead and change it.

I visited a grower today here in the Netherlands, and she was selling it as Persicaria polymorpha, but I identified mine (cutting from a garden) as P. wallichii years back because someone else was selling it as so at the time. I see someone, PaleCloudedWhite assumedly, already added some good pics; I'll split/repot the plant this week and get a rhizome pic, I've been curious as to how that looks (it also had a thick taproot). Will also add some info to the article from German sites, I see a few interesting tidbits... such as "Stinkt die 'Johanniswolke' nach Schweinestall?". Cheers, Leo Breman (talk) 21:43, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm now questioning if 'Johanniswolke' even exists at all? The cultivar name came about because it was first misidentified when it was first marketed in the 2000s. There is only one thing for it... order an original Koenigia × fennica from Sweden. Leo Breman (talk) 22:07, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Help with the identification of a species

Good morning. Greetings to all the fellow editors!

I have several photographs of the Hippeastrum genus and I would like that my pictures could illustrate the articles that correspond to it's species. But since I’m not a botanist, I can’t identify it.

I have created a gallery in Commons to show the photos in question, so that some of you can help me easily: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Unidentified_Hippeastrum_in_Venezuela

I thank you in advance for any support in this regard, and I hope that you are doing fine. --Sebastián Arena... 02:50, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Well, the first question is whether it is a species or a cultivar. The size of the flower and the thickness of the scape are what I would expect of a cultivated "amaryllis" (as they still seem to be called by those who sell them). Recent cultivars with this general flower shape tend to have broader tepals, like 'Minerva'. Older cultivars are difficult to identify, because they disappear from sale. Peter coxhead (talk) 06:46, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Oh, sorry for my ignorance! I didn't know there was a difference between “species” and “cultivars”. I did see the resemblance of my flower to “Minerva”, but I had my doubts because the color is not the same. So I didn't want to make a mistake putting the pictures in the wrong category of Commons. --Sebastián Arena... 17:19, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

I also see the resemblance with “Gilmar”, but I'm not sure. --Sebastián Arena... 17:25, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Could easily be a hybrid. Do you have any way of checking the box it came in, or if you ordered it online, the online order form? Abductive (reasoning) 23:24, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your answer! Well, I don't have any way to check that. The flower has been many years in my house, and it's really from my mom. But I could ask her how she got it in the first place. So, there is no way to know if it's really an hybrid or not, with just photographs? I mean, the only way to know for sure is taking the flower or a piece of her to a laboratory of biologists? --Sebastián Arena... 02:46, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Given the history of the plant, I would be reasonably confident that it's a cultivar. Bearing in mind that colour in digital photographs depends on the lighting, it seems to me that 'Gilmar' is highly likely to be correct; all the detail of the markings are correct, and the colour difference is a reflection of cool versus warm white illumination. ('Gilmar' seems to be popular in Brazil judging by the number of ".br" hits Google finds searching for "Amaryllis Hippeastrum Gilmar".) Peter coxhead (talk) 06:10, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your help! I will change the name to “Gilmar” then, although knowing that it's a cultivar makes improbable that any of my photos would be on an article, right? Well, as the song says, “you can't always get what you want”. --Sebastián Arena... 20:48, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Moving Poaceae to Grass

There is a proposed move discussion underway, in which the article Poaceae would be moved to Grass. You may express your opinions on this proposal at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Poaceae#Requested_move_28_May_2020 Nick Moyes (talk) 22:52, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Having reread Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(flora) I interpret it to support using Poaceae. However, is it worth making it explicit the ICN names should be used for plant families and orders? (There are other families where the ambiguity argument doesn't apply - families were a vernacular name is derived from an old or current familial name, plus Orchidaceae - leaving the consistency argument.) Lavateraguy (talk) 20:22, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Plant in Stuttgart-Rotenberg

• 
  What is this?

• Found in: Württemberg, Germany
• Time: 31st May, 2020

I am not very well versed in plants, so maybe you can help me: Is this a Sambucus ebulus? Thanks in advance.--Alexander-93 (talk) 14:12, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

@Alexander-93: how tall was it? Were the stems branched? From the photo it could also be young stems of Sambucus nigra, e.g. a plant that had been cut back. Peter coxhead (talk) 14:57, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

@Peter coxhead: I guess not higher than 2 meters. I don't know, if the stems were branched.--Alexander-93 (talk) 15:01, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Stace (the standard British flora) says that Sambucus ebulus reaches 1.5m. And that would only be later in the year when it reaches full growth. So if this is 2m high then it's probably (you do on occasion see plants that are bigger than the books admit to) too big to be Sambucus ebulus, so Sambucus nigra or possibly one of the exotic elders. Lavateraguy (talk) 08:32, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

The foliage looks to me to be consistent with S. nigra after it has been cut back hard and is putting on vigorous regrowth. Also a scan of images of S. ebulus at Commons shows foliage that's more 'refined' in appearance (less coarsely serrated), with possibly more folding along the length of each leaflet, than the image shown here. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 08:51, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree with both the comments above; it's most likely to be young stems of Sambucus nigra. Peter coxhead (talk) 09:53, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

It's certainly not S. ebulus, looks like S. nigra (S. canadensis is pretty much identical). Leo Breman (talk) 11:58, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Glebionis segetum

I'm somewhat concerned that the image at Glebionis segetum is actually of Glebionis coronaria var. discolor. Lavateraguy (talk) 20:02, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree, and I have replaced the image. Looking at all the images at commons:Category:Glebionis segetum, there are others I doubt too.

This is yet another example of the problems caused by using Wikidata in other wikis. The infobox in the commons category got the suspect image from the Wikidata item, so this is the image that multiple language wikis have used. I've now changed the Wikidata item to use what appears to be a correct image. Peter coxhead (talk) 06:08, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Ranunculus species

There's a question at Talk:List of Ranunculus species#About the list, regarding the number of species in the genus, that might be of interest here. The questioner seems correct to assert that there are many more than indicated. Plants of the World Online lists 1,654 accepted species! But with the present format of the list (including common names, distributions and images), expanding would be a huge task. Thanks Declangi (talk) 05:12, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

I think POWO may use a rather wide circumscription of Ranunculus, including things like Ficaria that are often treated as segregates. Choess (talk) 05:14, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

The maintainers of PoWO (Rafaël Govaerts in particular) are generally "lumpers". I discovered this when working on ferns; PoWO follows Christenhusz, Maarten M.J.; Fay, Michael; Byng, James W. (2018), The Global Flora: Special Edition: GLOVAP Nomenclature Part 1, Plant Gateway Ltd., ISBN 978-0-9929993-6-0, rather than the consensus Pteridophyte Phylogeny Group system (PPG1). One example is that Blechnum has about 30 species in PPG1, but about 250 species in Christenhusz et al. (2018) and hence PoWO, since their genus corresponds to an entire subfamily. I've since noted that this extends to some other higher level taxa. It does mean that PoWO cannot be taken as the definitive guide if other, perhaps more specialized, taxonomic databases and/or up-to-date regional floras take a different view, which is a pity. Peter coxhead (talk) 05:52, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Lavatera phoenicea

Shouldn't Lavatera phoenicea be moved to Malva now? Leo Breman (talk) 20:00, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

It's the sister group to the rest of the expanded Malva so placement in the monotypic genus Navaea is also tenable, and seems to have more usage per a google search (84 versus 41 if you look at the actual results returned rather than the headline numbers). But POWO, Euro+Med and AFPD all place it in Malva, so, provisionally, yes. 10:38, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Shouldn't Lavateraguy be moved to Malva now? Ehm, sorry, couldn't help myself. AFPD is the CJB's African Plant Database I assume? Right, I'll try to move it and write up something on tax. Leo Breman (talk) 18:43, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Lavatera assurgentiflora needs moving as well, but I can't move it (Malva assurgentiflora already redirects). Leo Breman (talk) 22:10, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Done. - Dank (push to talk) 22:14, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Sigh... Yet another set of slides and photos in talks I give to be edited once more to update the scientific names. Malva/Lavatera acerifolia/canariensis, a beautiful plant of the Canaries, has a particularly tangled history of labels. Peter coxhead (talk) 08:37, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

File:Biscuit flower.jpg

I don't think a "biscuit flower" exists. Can someone please correctly identify this flower? Thanks, im temtem • hOI!! • fsfdfg • alt account of pandakekok9 11:51, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Looks like Catharanthus roseus. (A search for "biscuit flower" is dominated by hits for a musician and for creating flower-shaped biscuits, but there are sources for it as a vernacular name for the very different Sarracenia flava. Lavateraguy (talk) 14:51, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. I will be renaming it on Commons. im temtem • hOI!! • fsfdfg • alt account of pandakekok9 06:50, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Superasterids - many missing species

Our article Superasterids says they contain “more than 122,000 species”. Is that right? Adding up the counts in the contained clades, one obtains:

Clade	Species	Source	APweb species
Berberidopsidales	3	WP	4
Santales	1,000	The Angiosperm Phylogeny Group: An update of the Angiosperm Phylogeny Group classification for the orders and families of flowering plants: APG IV. In: Botanical Journal of the Linnean Society, vol 181, 2016, p. 1–20. doi:10.1111/boj.12385	1,992
Caryophyllales	11,155	WP	11,620
Asterids	82,980	(from table below)	1000,593 (sic)
total	95,138

Asterids:

Clade	Species	Source	APweb
Cornales	600	WP	590
Ericales	8,000	WP	12,005
euasterids	74,380	(from table below)	?
total	82,980

euasterids:

Clade	Species	Source
lamiids	40,000	WP
campanulids	35,878	(from table below)
total	74,380

campanulids:

Clade	Species	Source
Aquifoliales	536	de:Stechpalmenartige
Asterales	28,500	WP
Escallionales	130	WP
Bruniales	80	subclades
Apiales	5,500	de:Doldenblütlerartige
Dipsacales	1,096	subclades
Paracryphiales	36	WP
total	35,878

That is, we are missing about 27,000 species. Even by the standards of a rapidly changing field, that is an enormous discrepancy, more than double the deviations found in other clades. What are the missing species? ◀ Sebastian 23:14, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Some of the WP number are fairly old. Caryophyllales cited APweb from 2007 gave 11,155, whereas the current version has 11,620 species (updated). That's a 5% different, albeit short of the 25% missing you've identified. APweb's Asterid page unhelpfully gives "1000,593" species, which if it means 100,593 species could explain most of the difference.