Attack on Titan
| jk this thread will actually be about something interesting. Sometimes I see people debate whether AOT is shounen or seinen. As I'm watching this season, I'm reading the manga from the beginning simultaneously, because I like having everything fresh in my mind and seeing how details from earlier in the series and later in the series connect. It's become kind of obvious to me that the first part of the series is more simple and more light-hearted. The characters all seem to know what they want, they seem confident they're doing what they should be doing, and there are more gags (such as in the training camp). I found this part of the series to be the least enjoyable, at least reading/watching it as an adult. It's just kinda boring, and you don't get a good sense of how complicated things are going to become. To me the moment the series starts to get good is the moment Annie absolutely brutalizes the survey corps, and then cries in her ragged, mutilated titan body after losing Eren to Mikasa and Levi. From there, the content becomes more and more mature, and the morality of the characters is continually complicated and called into question by the information the survey corps (and we as viewers) gain about the world, as well as the difficult choices they're forced to make. It stops being about freedom and saving humanity (in some ways it still is... but who the enemy of freedom and humanity is becomes unclear when we find out the Titans are more than just an anomalous predator of humans), and it becomes a question of whether it's possible to act according to our ability to determine right from wrong when it comes to a struggle for power. If the Eldians don't stop short of eliminating or subjugating the Marleyans, they've learned nothing from their history and just become the oppressors, the "bad guys," again themselves. I think this is clearly what the Reiss family understood, and why simplistic readings that conclude the show is pro-imperialism or anti-Semitic or what have you don't make any sense (among other reasons). Detractors often seem to complain that AOT on the whole is too straight forward, too black and white, in order to appeal to the perspective of a kid. I think Isayama made the beginning of the series that way on purpose, knowing that the kids that got into it in the beginning would be adults, or at least nearly adults, by the time the series ends, but perhaps that backfires for people trying to get into the series now as adults. Anyone who has stuck with the series from its start until now couldn't possibly think of it as having the same simple narrative we started with, and if you've been watching carefully, you know there's not a single faction or character you could point to who is completely in the right. Likewise, just because a Marleyan is portrayed sympathetically here and there, doesn't mean the show is sympathetic to Nazis. First of all, that's stretching the analog to Nazis and Jews too far. All the visual language of the uniforms and armbands is meant to do is make it easy to tell who's the oppressor and who's the oppressed. The structure of the world is simple so that the characters can be more complicated. The Eldians and Marleyans are not literally stand-ins for the Jews and Nazis in order for the author to express his feelings about them. They're composites, of both fiction and history, and neither from just one culture or race's history. But I digress. The point is that "the Marleyans" aren't the bad guys, racists are; or just racism itself, along with fear, self interest, vengeance, and so on. That will still be true if the Eldians become oppressors again. As long as there is an oppressor the struggle never ends. Even the titans powers can't be blamed once military force reaches a point where it supersedes them. A victory is only a victory for humanity if it makes life better for humanity, not merely one race or another. For an example of how the characters become more complicated over time, I'd like to use Annie as an example. She's one of my favorite characters, and it's really astonishing how much depth she has for how little dialogue and screen time she has compared to other characters. She starts off as a strong, mysterious silent girl and then disappears into a chrysalis for half of the story. Taken at face value, Annie's words read like a "blue lives matter" rant. Marlowe could not come to that important conclusion, that the system is fucked, without her words though. Not only that, Annie is at this point basically a kid who thinks of obeying Marley as a matter of possibly life or death, and certainly of preserving her humanity (as I'll explain below) though we only start to see what's behind her actions in this most recent episode (episode 3) of the anime. Her words take on a deeper meaning when you understand that she grew up aspiring to be an honorary Marleyan, which in itself is a struggle to have herself viewed as human rather than a demon Eldian. Remember that for most of her life, she's had a mindset forged completely outside of the walls of Paradis. Nevertheless, in her two confrontations with the Survey Corps, which this dialogue comes between, we begin to see her becoming conflicted. She feels guilty for her failure as an honorary Marleyan, yet she also feels burgeoning guilt for her betrayal of her Eldian friends; especially Armin. Perhaps her biggest fear with concern to the Survey Corps' suspicion of her is not the consequences she'll face as a traitor and enemy to the Eldians, nor the consequences she may face from the Marleyans for failing in her mission. It's the emotional consequences of knowing she's hurt Armin and Eren by letting them figure out she was lying to them, and that she was partially to blame for them losing their homes and families. She's afraid she won't be the nice person Armin thought of her as in the recruitment scene. Really, it's her guilt that proves she is a nice person. She's a child led astray, extorted and victimized by her oppressors. That's why she's reluctant to become the female Titan in front of them until she has no choice (aside: the female Titan is such a lame concept for a Titan. She's not even the only female Titan, and what happens if a boy inherits it?) This is what she's hoping Marlowe will understand when she asks him to see her as human: that there's more to her actions than meet the eye, even though he himself has no idea how terrible her actions truly have been. As we also learn in the most recent episode, the reason she was so standoffish in training camp was that she knew she would have an inability to reconcile her duty with inevitable feelings of kinship with the kids inside the wall. Kids her age who have been just as mentally screwed over and traumatized by the hellish world they're growing up in. TL;DR the series transcends the genre it started in more and more as it goes on, and peoples' constant misreadings of the series are evidence of how complicated it actually is. |
| I don't understand what Isayama was thinking when he was said this show is intended for young viewers which is certainly not.He should've published it in young jump.Kids would not like Attack on titan because of all the violence.My 11 year old brother watched many generic battle shonen with me and he doesn't want to watch attack on titan.Even the teens may not get into the anime because they may not be able to handle the violence. |
 Scordolo's Recent Reviews To your eternity Vanitas no Karte |
shrapn3l said: jk this thread will actually be about something interesting. Sometimes I see people debate whether AOT is shounen or seinen. As I'm watching this season, I'm reading the manga from the beginning simultaneously, because I like having everything fresh in my mind and seeing how details from earlier in the series and later in the series connect. It's become kind of obvious to me that the first part of the series is more simple and more light-hearted. The characters all seem to know what they want, they seem confident they're doing what they should be doing, and there are more gags (such as in the training camp). I found this part of the series to be the least enjoyable, at least reading/watching it as an adult. It's just kinda boring, and you don't get a good sense of how complicated things are going to become. To me the moment the series starts to get good is the moment Annie absolutely brutalizes the survey corps, and then cries in her ragged, mutilated titan body after losing Eren to Mikasa and Levi. From there, the content becomes more and more mature, and the morality of the characters is continually complicated and called into question by the information the survey corps (and we as viewers) gain about the world, as well as the difficult choices they're forced to make. It stops being about freedom and saving humanity (in some ways it still is... but who the enemy of freedom and humanity is becomes unclear when we find out the Titans are more than just an anomalous predator of humans), and it becomes a question of whether it's possible to act according to our ability to determine right from wrong when it comes to a struggle for power. If the Eldians don't stop short of eliminating or subjugating the Marleyans, they've learned nothing from their history and just become the oppressors, the "bad guys," again themselves. I think this is clearly what the Reiss family understood, and why simplistic readings that conclude the show is pro-imperialism or anti-Semitic or what have you don't make any sense (among other reasons). Detractors often seem to complain that AOT on the whole is too straight forward, too black and white, in order to appeal to the perspective of a kid. I think Isayama made the beginning of the series that way on purpose, knowing that the kids that got into it in the beginning would be adults, or at least nearly adults, by the time the series ends, but perhaps that backfires for people trying to get into the series now as adults. Anyone who has stuck with the series from its start until now couldn't possibly think of it as having the same simple narrative we started with, and if you've been watching carefully, you know there's not a single faction or character you could point to who is completely in the right. Likewise, just because a Marleyan is portrayed sympathetically here and there, doesn't mean the show is sympathetic to Nazis. First of all, that's stretching the analog to Nazis and Jews too far. All the visual language of the uniforms and armbands is meant to do is make it easy to tell who's the oppressor and who's the oppressed. The structure of the world is simple so that the characters can be more complicated. The Eldians and Marleyans are not literally stand-ins for the Jews and Nazis in order for the author to express his feelings about them. They're composites, of both fiction and history, and neither from just one culture or race's history. But I digress. The point is that "the Marleyans" aren't the bad guys, racists are; or just racism itself, along with fear, self interest, vengeance, and so on. That will still be true if the Eldians become oppressors again. As long as there is an oppressor the struggle never ends. Even the titans powers can't be blamed once military force reaches a point where it supersedes them. A victory is only a victory for humanity if it makes life better for humanity, not merely one race or another. For an example of how the characters become more complicated over time, I'd like to use Annie as an example. She's one of my favorite characters, and it's really astonishing how much depth she has for how little dialogue and screen time she has compared to other characters. She starts off as a strong, mysterious silent girl and then disappears into a chrysalis for half of the story. Taken at face value, Annie's words read like a "blue lives matter" rant. Marlowe could not come to that important conclusion, that the system is fucked, without her words though. Not only that, Annie is at this point basically a kid who thinks of obeying Marley as a matter of possibly life or death, and certainly of preserving her humanity (as I'll explain below) though we only start to see what's behind her actions in this most recent episode (episode 3) of the anime. Her words take on a deeper meaning when you understand that she grew up aspiring to be an honorary Marleyan, which in itself is a struggle to have herself viewed as human rather than a demon Eldian. Remember that for most of her life, she's had a mindset forged completely outside of the walls of Paradis. Nevertheless, in her two confrontations with the Survey Corps, which this dialogue comes between, we begin to see her becoming conflicted. She feels guilty for her failure as an honorary Marleyan, yet she also feels burgeoning guilt for her betrayal of her Eldian friends; especially Armin. Perhaps her biggest fear with concern to the Survey Corps' suspicion of her is not the consequences she'll face as a traitor and enemy to the Eldians, nor the consequences she may face from the Marleyans for failing in her mission. It's the emotional consequences of knowing she's hurt Armin and Eren by letting them figure out she was lying to them, and that she was partially to blame for them losing their homes and families. She's afraid she won't be the nice person Armin thought of her as in the recruitment scene. Really, it's her guilt that proves she is a nice person. She's a child led astray, extorted and victimized by her oppressors. That's why she's reluctant to become the female Titan in front of them until she has no choice (aside: the female Titan is such a lame concept for a Titan. She's not even the only female Titan, and what happens if a boy inherits it?) This is what she's hoping Marlowe will understand when she asks him to see her as human: that there's more to her actions than meet the eye, even though he himself has no idea how terrible her actions truly have been. As we also learn in the most recent episode, the reason she was so standoffish in training camp was that she knew she would have an inability to reconcile her duty with inevitable feelings of kinship with the kids inside the wall. Kids her age who have been just as mentally screwed over and traumatized by the hellish world they're growing up in. TL;DR the series transcends the genre it started in more and more as it goes on, and peoples' constant misreadings of the series are evidence of how complicated it actually is. First I just wanna congratulate you on a great POST, I was definitely fooled before I read the description. And YES so fucking YES. In fact the whole shitshow with the manga readers for current chapters is also proof of how complicated this whole story is, you can see here, Reddit, Twitter manga readers fighting between which side is in the right, and they get hostile and agressive. https://fuku-shuu.tumblr.com/post/162652398937/snk-news-isayama-hajimes-bessatsu-shonen-august The last paragraph of Isayama interview illustrates the whole point of this story and what you are referring to. I am not surprised so many people misunderstand AOT in general since plenty of them are teenagers with a very black and white view of the world themselves, but even if AOT had a audience in the general age of something like The Wire, this type of conflict between fans will still be present I bet. |
| Great perspective on the major tones of attack on titan! On a slightly different note, while reading this post I also started to think that most of the criticism that this franchise receives regarding its story is usually due to the first season and how it seemed too black and white, and I really wish people could catch up all the way before making a judgment. This also brings up a question on whether one should consider judging a series if it has not been finished yet. |
Scordolo said: I don't understand what Isayama was thinking when he was said this show is intended for young viewers which is certainly not.He should've published it in young jump.Kids would not like Attack on titan because of all the violence.My 11 year old brother watched many generic battle shonen with me and he doesn't want to watch attack on titan.Even the teens may not get into the anime because they may not be able to handle the violence. Idk if im right on this, But Isayama was having trouble getting aot published, and even thought of giving up on aot, so i thought he went along with whatever he could |
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| I always thought that the eldians were japanese and the fvcking marleyans were chinese, it resembles how the yamato fled the continent for the islands of japan, I know it's a big stretch but I think Isayama is more into asian stuff than europe stuff. I agree that it transcends genres but every magazine is aimed towards a segment of population, it's not wrong calling it a shonen. why the bait title? |
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BerriesSan said: Scordolo said: I don't understand what Isayama was thinking when he was said this show is intended for young viewers which is certainly not.He should've published it in young jump.Kids would not like Attack on titan because of all the violence.My 11 year old brother watched many generic battle shonen with me and he doesn't want to watch attack on titan.Even the teens may not get into the anime because they may not be able to handle the violence. Idk if im right on this, But Isayama was having trouble getting aot published, and even thought of giving up on aot, so i thought he went along with whatever he could Yeah.Because Aot was too dark for young viewers he was not able to publish in in Shonen jump.He would've had no problem when he first published it in Young jump though. |
Scordolo's Recent Reviews To your eternity Vanitas no Karte |
Scordolo said: BerriesSan said: Idk if im right on this, But Isayama was having trouble getting aot published, and even thought of giving up on aot, so i thought he went along with whatever he could Yeah.Because Aot was too dark for young viewers he was not able to publish in in Shonen jump.He would've had no problem when he first published it in Young jump though. He was having trouble not with the story, but because of his art. https://youtu.be/lDDRtjSq3Fc?t=67 |
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| I wait patiently for the day this worthless discussion about AoT being a seinen or shounen dies off and people actually discuss the themes of the story. Fucking hell. Why does it matter anyways? |
Harsha1314 said: DomineLkira said: cause its fun to pass time as long as it doesn't start a warI wait patiently for the day this worthless discussion about AoT being a seinen or shounen dies off and people actually discuss the themes of the story. Fucking hell. Why does it matter anyways? Hohoho do you think this take doesn't start a war? New here? |
| Am i the only one who feels like the flashback was paced badly? Like c'mmon the scenes were awesome and the writing good but can't they fuckin pause for a moment before they jump to the next statement , it's like the characters already prepared what they were gonna say and just deliver the statements like bullets. |
Bigballzman said: Wait. Do people actually care if it's Shonen or Seinen? Like... Do they actually care?? Why??? 😂 Yeah it's kinda stupid caring for whether its a seinen or shounen like wtf? The only thing that makes it good/ mature is its characters and plot . |
Doom_Reigns said: Am i the only one who feels like the flashback was paced badly? Like c'mmon the scenes were awesome and the writing good but can't they fuckin pause for a moment before they jump to the next statement , it's like the characters already prepared what they were gonna say and just deliver the statements like bullets. Yeah it was a bit too fast. Part of the reason I liked the marley arc in manga was that it was PERFECTLY paced. And now it is being adapted like this. I still like it , but a bit disappointed. |
beanie_weeny said: Doom_Reigns said: Am i the only one who feels like the flashback was paced badly? Like c'mmon the scenes were awesome and the writing good but can't they fuckin pause for a moment before they jump to the next statement , it's like the characters already prepared what they were gonna say and just deliver the statements like bullets. yeah i think only a few are like you tbh. i felt it was a bit fast but wasnt rushed or anything. S3P1 was rushed like shit.This wasnt anywhere close to that. The thing with that season was that WIT adapted it in a way that it didn't felt rushed if you were anime only. I am pretty sure Isayama was disappointed with that arc and that's why re wrote it a bit , resulting in the fast pacing. |
| I always thought the whole genre thing for SNK was pretty straightforward. Shounen and Seinen are only demographics, and doesn't mean the story won't be mature (hence why we have anime like Death Note or The Promised Neverland as Shounen). All it means is that the author had a different vision about the "maturity" of the young audience. However, Battle Shounen is absolutely a genre. Shows like Naruto, MHA, Hunter x Hunter, Fairy Tail, Bleach, Kimetsu no Yaiba, Jujutsu Kaisen and many others have extremely similar simple plot structure. That structure does not have the slightest resemblance of SNK plot structure. I guess the simplest way of knowing if something is a Battle Shounen is just ask yourself if that story could have a tournament arc. It's pretty ridiculous even considering the possibility SNK is a Battle Shounen, even when talking about Season 1. Speaking of Season 1, I have an unpopular opinion, but I genuinely believe the story was already mature when the Trost arc started. The deep dive into the characters have started with the main trio (Eren, Armin and Mikasa) in that arc. I honestly still think it's a shame everyone just remember that arc and S1 as a whole as just "mindless action" when it was so much more than that. I do agree however that the story became more mature as it progressed. |
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Doom_Reigns said: Am i the only one who feels like the flashback was paced badly? Like c'mmon the scenes were awesome and the writing good but can't they fuckin pause for a moment before they jump to the next statement , it's like the characters already prepared what they were gonna say and just deliver the statements like bullets. I agree with you. The biggest problem along with animation this season is the awful pacing especially in such dialogue heavy episodes. The anime doesn't stay on one scene long enough which makes it seem that the story is trying to rush through events to get to the action. Disappointed in MAPPA. |
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Mattinator95 said: Alpha_Druid said: I agree with you. The biggest problem along with animation this season is the awful pacing especially in such dialogue heavy episodes. The anime doesn't stay on one scene long enough which makes it seem that the story is trying to rush through events to get to the action. Disappointed in MAPPA. Same script writer as the previous seasons they only have 16 epiosdes as alot of the chapters are info heavy, things need to cut and rearranged and shortened to fit into episodes Still doesn't change the fact it's rushed. The emotional impact is to suffer along with plot clarity. |
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shrapn3l said: I was trying to get people looking to complain abt the minute failings of the adaptation to consider the series more positively and thoughtfully instead, but I suppose I blew it since people are now talking about the pacing in the thread anyway lol. even the guy above who said he can't wait for people to talk about the themes of AOT is now just talking about the pacing, even though talking about the themes here would be perfectly appropriate. it seems like the vast majority of threads in this sub are overemphasizing MAPPA's "failings," which don't really strike me as failings in the first place, rather than talking about what's good about the series, or the themes, or how MAPPA's visual style suits the material, or what have you. if this is a place for AOT fans to discuss the final arc of AOT, why is 90% of the discussion just quibbling about MAPPA? but rather than just making a thread where i complain about other people complaining about MAPPA, i thought i would just take initiative and make a thread that it would interest me to read/discuss. maybe the title was a silly idea. thanks for the clarification, I kinda understand what you wanted, I also read some posts about pacing here and I wanna bleach my eyes. anyways, do you have some thoughts about what I said? |
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Indeed... unfortunately the discussions will still be cancerous because of that. |
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Scordolo said: I don't understand what Isayama was thinking when he was said this show is intended for young viewers which is certainly not.He should've published it in young jump.Kids would not like Attack on titan because of all the violence.My 11 year old brother watched many generic battle shonen with me and he doesn't want to watch attack on titan.Even the teens may not get into the anime because they may not be able to handle the violence. Your series gets more exposure for being in a shounen magazine. |
shrapn3l said: I think you're right that a lot of fans probably overlook the influence of the history of Japanese conflict with countries like China and Korea. Isayama is probably more knowledgeable and interested in that stuff. It's not something I know a great deal of specifics about, but I think it's evident that he's drawing on figures from the Japanese military and history. Most people know about Pixis I'm sure. On the other hand, I read recently that there is a German author and journalist by the name of Ilse Langner (which is the name of the girl from the survey corps who got eaten by an abnormal that spoke to her, after she recorded her encounter in her journal). I think Isayama has a pretty broad interest in the history and the meaning of human conflict, which is why I wouldn't go so far as to say the Eldians are this group, or the Marleyans are that group, or that one group is right or another is wrong. It's good to think about and discuss though. I think AOT fans probably have learned a good bit of history from other fans pointing out connections between the story and real human history. Learning about and reflecting on history is probably what Isayama wants fans to do, without guiding them firmly to specific answers. interesting, didn't know about ilse langner, I thought to myself many times about the big snk conflict, jews-nazis was too easy and isayama - a japanese would be more into japanese stuff. So I will expand a little, I like how you said that the mark is to show us who is the oppressed and who is the oppressor, simple as that, in-your-face, people came out and made the nazi parallel which holds water of course but the overall conflict is more hateful than that. isayama's generation grew up watching on tv about how japan is responsible for the war, korea always calls them out about the comfort women, chinese scream about nanking, all indochina is screaming about something, and maybe he thought to make a story about a "race" of people so hated that the entire world wants them gone - the eldians yamato people fled the asian continent japan closes itself in the tokugawa shogunate era the chinese and the mongols want to conquer japan but never succeed japan - a small island nation conquers the asian continent I feel that he inspired from here and then let imagination do its job and created the unending conflict, there is no good or bad, there is just war and suffering, even if you root for the eldians, it's not like they can bring peace, all the countries there hate them, this needs something massive to happen. |
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shrapn3l said: Catalano said: interesting, didn't know about ilse langner, I thought to myself many times about the big snk conflict, jews-nazis was too easy and isayama - a japanese would be more into japanese stuff. So I will expand a little, I like how you said that the mark is to show us who is the oppressed and who is the oppressor, simple as that, in-your-face, people came out and made the nazi parallel which holds water of course but the overall conflict is more hateful than that. isayama's generation grew up watching on tv about how japan is responsible for the war, korea always calls them out about the comfort women, chinese scream about nanking, all indochina is screaming about something, and maybe he thought to make a story about a "race" of people so hated that the entire world wants them gone - the eldians yamato people fled the asian continent japan closes itself in the tokugawa shogunate era the chinese and the mongols want to conquer japan but never succeed japan - a small island nation conquers the asian continent I feel that he inspired from here and then let imagination do its job and created the unending conflict, there is no good or bad, there is just war and suffering, even if you root for the eldians, it's not like they can bring peace, all the countries there hate them, this needs something massive to happen. that does make sense, and would explain why the story is told from the Eldian perspective starting from the point where they're trapped in Paradis, when he really could've chosen any point in the conflict to start. definitely seems like the kind of thing a Japanese viewer would recognize instantly, though many western fans (myself included) may not know as much about it. that raises the question of why (most of) the primary characters look European. to me that decision is just to let the Japanese viewers know that the story isn't too literal. It's inspired by Japanese history, but not a commentary on just Japan per se, not to overemphasize a point I think we both agree upon. I can see why some non-Japanese Asian viewers might not want to give the show a chance though lol especially because it takes a while before we start seeing the flaws in the Eldians. but they're missing out.. sure, I agree, the story is not japan's history but it had some inspirations, why not, use everything you have at your disposal and create something. Making the eldians non-japanese was a great choice and of course isayama would want to cater more to the japanese audience but only cause he's japanese himself and knows japanese stuff (an american creator would try to use american elements but you get what I am trying to say). |
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| @shrapn3l Thank you for this insigtful post (I have totally forgotten this conversation of Annie and Marlowe, but it's brilliant indeed). I'd like to respond you in more detail but I will have to return later for that... As for shounen/seinen thing: one of the best descriptions I've seen for AOT is "a shounen hero in a seinen world". It works for me. As an adult, I agree indeed that the first half of season 1 seemed a bit disappointing to me. I don't like gore and action scenes normally. And as soon as I saw that there were humans hiding in the titans, I thought "ah, so it's going to be mecha now" and I dropped it. I don't know why, but I half a year I came back to the story AND WHAT DID I FIND. Shit. I still shudder at the thought that I could have missed this masterpiece. It's really the first time that I come across a work of fiction (in any kind of media) that subverts all initial expectations about the plot, the world, the characters. It just makes a leap in scale after every major plot twist. And the reveal at the basement + Eren looking an the ocean at the end of Season 3 - I just trembled physically, I really felt like I was one of these characters whose whole concept of the world has just been shattered to pieces. Fantastic stuff. |
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